CNN Late Edition - Transcript

CNN Late Edition - Transcript
Sunday, June 5, 2005

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BLITZER: President Bush speaking on Tuesday. Welcome back to "LATE EDITION."

Joining us now here in Washington to talk about the insurgency in Iraq and more, U.S. Senator Mitchell McConnell of Kentucky. He's the Senate's third ranking Republican; actually I believe he's the second ranking Republican. We'll fix that.

And in his home state of Connecticut, U.S. Senator Chris Dodd-he is the key Democrat-a key Democrat, let's say-on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.

Senators, thanks to both of you for joining us.

Second or third?

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY), MAJORITY WHIP: Second.

BLITZER: That's what I thought. Just want to make sure I'm not gypping you with your title.

Let's talk a little bit about what's going on in Iraq. And Senator McConnell, you just came back from the region.

In April and May, 278 car bomb attacks, more than 750 Iraqis killed or wounded and another 131 American troops killed.

The vice president says this is the last throes of the insurgency. A lot of people, though, are skeptical.

MCCONNELL: Well, certainly there is persistent violence in the Sunni Triangle. There's no denying that.

The broader issue, though, is whether they're making progress. They clearly are. We have an elected government now. They're going to finish the constitution by August 15th. That will be voted on in October, and if that's approved we'll have the permanent government in place in December.

There is-it's indisputable that progress is being made in getting both the Iraqi military and police up and running. I had a chance to meet with General Petraeus, who is in charge of that difficult job, and General Casey, of course, while I was there.

Most of the country is quiet and normal and in much better shape than it was under Saddam Hussein.

So, sure, there are problems but also great progress is being made.

BLITZER: All right, what about that, indisputable? What do you think Senator Dodd?

SEN. CHRISTOPHER DODD (D), CONNECTICUT: Well, first of all, on this Memorial Day recess we're all on here, you have to begin any conversation by expressing our gratitude to the men and women in uniform who are over there putting themselves in harm's way.

And no matter what one concludes about how things are going in Iraq, we all owe a great deal of gratitude to these people. So let me begin there.

I haven't been there as recently as Mitch has, so I can't speak firsthand, but Senator Biden and Curt Weldon and others-a bipartisan group were there-and there seems to be a disconnect between sort of the rose garden optimism and the Baghdad pessimism as one article cited in recent days.

And obviously when you have the numbers: the 12,000 Iraqis who have lost their lives to these insurgents; the numbers you cite of American troops, and the notion that it's going to take at least another couple of years-I think the was the military conclusion that Senator Biden and Curt Weldon came back with - at least another couple of years before the Iraqis will have the kind of military and policing forces in place to be able to deal with this insurgency.

What worries me is we have these porous borders in Syria and Iran, and it seems to be there's no letting up; the number of people who are pouring in, willing to become suicide bombers.

I would have thought by now the numbers would be dissipating, and we'd see a shrinking of these instances, but it seems to be growing in numbers rather than becoming less and less, and that worries me about the future. BLITZER: What did they say to you, Senator McConnell, when you were there? You had these high-level briefings from U.S. military personnel, Iraqis. Why are the numbers going up in terms of the casualties among Iraqis and American troops?

MCCONNELL: Well, the biggest problem is dissident Iraqis rather than foreigners. There are foreigners in there, but the biggest part of the insurgency are the people you would expect to be unhappy. They're never going to be in power again.

BLITZER: The Saddam loyalists you're talking about?

MCCONNELL: Yes, the Saddam loyalists...

BLITZER: Mostly Sunnis?

MCCONNELL: ... in the Sunni Triangle.

That is not to say that all Sunnis are not participating. And many of them now are involved in the drafting of the constitution, involved in the government.

BLITZER: Did they tell you-these generals-what they apparently told Senator Biden and Republican Congressman Curt Weldon of Pennsylvania, that it would take at least another two years to get the Iraqi police and military up to speed?

MCCONNELL: No, I didn't hear that from any of the generals...

BLITZER: What was the assessment they gave you?

MCCONNELL: Well, the assessment was we're not there but we're working on it. There was no particular timetable.

Look, we're going to be there until we finish the job, and finishing the job is one of two things: either the government asks us to leave or it's clear that the insurgency is gone.

We can't stop in the middle, and just because things are going tough from time to time we can't get faint-hearted here.

BLITZER: Well, let's ask Senator Dodd. What do you want? Do you want the U.S. simply to pull out, Senator Dodd?

DODD: No, no, no, not at all. Listen, I think-first of all, I should have maybe said this as well at the outset, it's in our common interest here that this work. It's important to us. It ought to be important to the Europeans that it work, that this come out in the end where you have a good constitution, a stable government with security and opportunity for the Iraqi people.

We've made a tremendous investment here at great cost in human lives and our treasury, as well. So we want it to work.

I think the concern is here is that we're not getting the straight picture all the time. And I think the American public deserve that; they're writing a tremendous about of resources-committing resources to this effort.

And instead of just always saying, "look, things are going great all the time," a good, honest assessment-things are tough; a lot tougher than we imagined. It's going to require a lot more in the end, and we hope it works as ultimately it's going to be the Iraqi people that make this work, not the United States.

We can do everything to give help this some guidance and an opportunity for the future, but if the Iraqi people themselves don't want to make this work, all the resources of the United States are not going to solve this problem.

BLITZER: Senator McConnell, Amnesty International had a blistering report that came out attacking the Bush administration's policies dealing with terror suspects at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba; specifically suggesting this has become, in their words, "the gulag of our times."

The president reacted angrily to that report this week. Listen to what the president said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: I'm aware of the Amnesty International report and it's absurd. It's an absurd allegation. The United States is a country that promotes freedom around the world. When there's accusations made about certain actions by our people, they're fully investigated in a transparent way. It's just an absurd allegation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: The defense secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, basically said the same thing the president said, to which William Schulz, Amnesty International USA's director, responded with this statement. He said, "Donald Rumsfeld personally approved the December 2002 memorandum that permitted such unlawful interrogation techniques, as stress positions, prolonged isolation, stripping, and the use of dogs at Guantanamo Bay. And he should be held accountable, as should all those responsible for torture, no matter how senior."

This is a respected international group, Amnesty International, which won the Nobel Peace Prize back in the '70s.

MCCONNELL: Look, the gulag comment is utterly outrageous. There is no country in the world that has stood for human rights more than the United States. We've been an example to the rest of the world.

Having said that, does that mean that a given soldier in a given situation may have made mistakes? I think some were made at Abu Ghraib, maybe some were made in Guantanamo. Our people are not perfect. But to equate Guantanamo with a gulag is completely outrageous. And I think the president and the secretary of defense had it right in so labeling it.

BLITZER: What do you think, Senator Dodd?

DODD: Well, don't get in a word game here.

What worries me about all of this-we're going to commemorate in a few weeks the 60th anniversary of the beginning of the Nuremberg trials. There were many people in this country and in Europe who thought we just should have summarily executed the defendants at Nuremberg rather than have a trial for them-where they allowed them to present evidence and have lawyers and make their case. In fact, some of them were acquitted at Nuremberg.

What worries me here is that we're getting away from that example, which was an example to the world of what we stood for as a nation of laws and not men-that all individuals had rights in here.

And we've got 500 prisoners down here. And there are accusations that are very troubling about how they're being treated but also whether or not people are actually going to be able to have an opportunity to be heard, have their cases heard, determine whether or not they're guilty or innocent.

I don't go so far as saying go to shut down Guantanamo. But at Guantanamo, it's important for us, it's important for our legacy, it's important for people to think about us, that we follow the rule of law. We're not doing that at Guantanamo.

BLITZER: You want, Senator Dodd, you want hearings on this? Senator Specter, the chairman of the Judiciary Committee, is suggesting he might have some hearings.

DODD: Well, I think it's a good idea. I mean, this is again-it's slow, it's cumbersome, some people may be acquitted. But in the long run, we send a better message to the world about who we are and what we care about if we do that, if we approach it in that direction.

BLITZER: Hearings, Senator McConnell?

MCCONNELL: Look, it's very difficult to run a perfect prison. But we have an open country. We have hearings on a whole lot of different subjects. We might well have hearings on this.

It's very difficult to run a perfect prison anywhere, but the United States does that better than any other country in the world.

BLITZER: We'll take a quick break. We'll continue this conversation. Much more coming up with our senators: McConnell and Dodd.

Also, we'll have a quick check of what's in the news right now, including the latest on the search for an Alabama high school girl who disappeared in Aruba six days ago. Stay with "LATE EDITION."

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BLITZER: Welcome back to "LATE EDITION." We're continuing our conversation with Republican Senator Mitch McConnell, he's the senate's majority whip, and Democratic Senator Chris Dodd, a member of the Foreign Relations Committee. Senator McConnell, there's indications now from a senior defense official that the U.S., the Bush administration, soon will go to the U.N. Security Council to seek sanctions against North Korea because of its nuclear weapons program. Is that a good idea?

MCCONNELL: Well, we certainly don't want to leave North Korea, unattended given the fact that we believe they have nuclear weapons and quite possibly the means of delivering it.

I think the administration's call to go to the U.N. is something that I would leave up to them. The six-party talks have not produced the result that we desire yet but we've got to keep the heat on the North Koreans.

BLITZER: Senator Dodd, is it time to go to the U.N. Security Council and seek sanctions against North Korea?

DODD: Well, I don't disagree with that. I'd be doing whatever I could. The key really is going to be China here. We've got to do a far better job of getting the Chinese to put the kind of pressure-they're the ones that are the suppliers to North Korea.

Without China's support, North Korea couldn't survive more than several months, and I think if we can get the Chinese-and there are several points on which we can urge them, it seems to me, to become more directly involved here-then I think the situation will deteriorate.

So we have now put some 15 stealth fighters in South Korea. We're ratcheting things up militarily. I don't like the direction that's going in. It seems to me again, the effort needs to be placed on China. The U.N. Security Council effort here may actually help in that regard.

BLITZER: Senator Dodd, your colleague, Senator Biden of the Foreign Relations Committee, suggested earlier this morning that President Bush probably will have enough votes in the senate to get John Bolton confirmed as the next U.S. ambassador to the U.N. You've done some head counting, I'm sure. Is he right?

DODD: I suspect that may be the case. What's holding this up is not a desire on my part or Senator Biden's part or Senator Reid's part. It's a desire to get some additional information here that we'd like to have regarding intercepts and some background on Syria.

Once that's, once-and I've tried all week, by the way. I've had conversations with John Negroponte back and forth, trying to work out something here that would allow us to vote on Bolton, John Bolton this coming week. I have no desire to have this go on any longer, but the Senate as an institution, where there is a legitimate request for information, ought not to retreat from that in my view, so I'm hopeful this week we can work out some compromise, vote on John Bolton.

My read is, based on the cloture vote we had before we left, is that John Bolton would probably have the votes for confirmation if we can get beyond this request for additional information. BLITZER: What's your read? Because, as you know, your Republican colleague from Ohio, Senator Voinovich, is adamantly opposed to confirmation of John Bolton.

MCCONNELL: Well, the issue here is whether we'll get to 60. And Senator Voinovich did vote with us to get cloture so we could get an up-or-down vote on Mr. Bolton. And I think Chris's assessment is correct. It'll be up to the Democrats as to whether or not he's given a chance to have an up-or-down vote. And if he gets one, he'll be confirmed.

BLITZER: On that point, Senator Dodd, let me just clarify. You'll continue to put a hold on it, so you'll need 60 votes to break that hold, or are you going to allow that up-and-down vote, a majority for confirmation?

DODD: As Mitch recalls back when, I recall a time when he was interested in getting some information out of the Clinton administration, held up some nominees, ambassadorial nominations, I'm not desirous of holding it up. But the Senate, in my view, has a right to some information, more than we've been getting on this nomination.

I'd hoped that could be resolved in the next few days, and then you wouldn't need a cloture vote, just have an up-or-down vote on John Bolton. I'm not interested in delaying this. The information being sought is legitimate information that we ought to have before we cast that vote.

BLITZER: What about that, Senator McConnell?

MCCONNELL: Well, I certainly was guilty of holding up some nominations for a brief period of time back in the '90s because we were getting no information at all. I mean, here's a situation where you've got 800 pages of documents that have been turned over, eight hours of testimony, there's been plenty of information turned over.

BLITZER: So, all right. Let's move on and talk about another confirmation process that's likely to go forward this week: Janice Rogers Brown for the D.C. Court of Appeals.

Senator Dodd, it looks like that's going to go through, as well. Is that your assessment?

DODD: That's my assessment. I think that was part of the arrangement worked out by the 14 senators who were part of that so- called deal that there would be a vote on her and a vote on Judge Pryor. And the concern we have is the notice that came out or news that came out in the past few days that we may see a flood of district court nominations.

The word I think that's operative here-and neither Mitch nor I were a part of the 14 but obviously we watched it closely-I think the word "reasonableness" here is what ought to be applied. That is, there will be reasonable nominees put forward and the Democrats would act reasonably and not engage in filibusters on these nominations. My hope is that's the path we'll follow here. If we do then I think we can avoid this crisis on a weekly basis of threatening to eliminate the filibuster or extend the debate rule. So, a lot will depend upon the nominations set forth by the administration.

And Democrats should respond with reasonableness.

BLITZER: Senator McConnell, did those 14 Democrats and Republicans, seven of each party, do the right thing in reaching that compromise?

MCCONNELL: Well, certainly we appreciate the opportunity to get an up-or-down vote on three judges, one of whom we approved 10 days ago, had been denied an opportunity for a vote for four years. It's good news that Priscilla Owen got confirmed. It's good news that Janice Rogers Brown is going to get confirmed. It's good news that Bill Pryor's going to get confirmed.

Frankly, every judge prior to the last Congress got an up-or-down vote when they got to the floor, and I hope that's...

BLITZER: But oftentimes you didn't even let some of those nominees get to the floor.

MCCONNELL: We offered to fix that problem. We offered to fix that problem, so everybody could be treated the same, everybody would get an up-or-down vote, both in committee and on the floor. They rejected that.

We'll see how this works out. I think the proof will be in the pudding. If they go back to filibustering, the constitutional option's still on the table, and the trigger will be pulled.

BLITZER: Is Howard Dean, Senator Dodd, an asset or a liability as chairman of the Democratic Party?

DODD: I think he's an asset. He energized a tremendous part of the population of the country who did not feel connected to the political process, was a very successful candidate for the presidency, though he did not win the nomination, has a tremendous amount of energy. He's bright, a former governor.

I think he's doing a good job as our national chairman.

BLITZER: What do you think? Because he's really made some statements that have been going after the Republicans, and most recently that Republicans basically-or at least he was suggesting to me on Friday that the Republican leadership never really worked that much, so they didn't know the problems of having to wait in long lines to vote in Ohio.

MCCONNELL: Yes. I would say to my good friend Chris, I can't think of anybody we like better to have heading your party than Howard Dean. I hope he serves a long time. We like him right where he is.

DODD: Well, thank you, Mitch. I'm sure Howard appreciates that very much this morning, I tell you. You're doing a good job.

BLITZER: Praise, praise from Senator McConnell for Howard Dean.

(LAUGHTER)

BLITZER: Senator Dodd, thanks very much.

Senator McConnell, thanks to you as well.

DODD: Thank you.

BLITZER: Appreciate both of you joining us here on "LATE EDITION."

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